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Mark (00:00):

You wanna make sure that what you buy is the real thing and, and not a fake or forgery. And again, you gotta know what you're buying. Buy from reputable sources. Do your homework.

Julie (00:15):

Welcome to the risk rundown. We are very excited to have the, the infamous mark wreck with us. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. 'cause I know that this is not something that you always are in front of the camera. You're usually behind the scenes. So I appreciate you letting Tyler and I speak with you today.

Mark (00:33):

Thanks for having me. Wouldn't wanna be anywhere else.

Julie (00:36):

Mark, we have hand chosen you because you have, um, been the key element of placing a lot of the business that we're gonna be talking about today and that, and we're gonna be talking about collections and how to structure insurance to best suit our, our clients, um, passions, um, passion assets.

And so we kind of do a rapid fire kind of question. So you are gonna be on the receiving end of that rapid fire. Oh boy. But no pressure. No pressure at all,

Mark (01:08):

feeling. No pressure at all.

Tyler (01:10):

Alright. Alright, Julie, let's, let's put Mark on the spot here.

Julie (01:13):

Let's,

Tyler (01:14):

alright, mark, what is the largest collection in value that you've seen?

Mark (01:21):

It's a trick question. 'cause I know at one point I was involved in the largest personally insured private collection in the world, and that hovered around five. Plus billion dollars.

Tyler (01:36):

Wow.

Mark (01:36):

But I'm sure there's other collections in that valuation. They just may not choose to insure it to value. So that's why I'm saying it's a tricky question.

Julie (01:46):

Uh, you know what, and we'll get into that later because that's a, that's a good, that's a good segue for another comment. Um, what's the one risk with collections or fine arts, um, that you find doesn't get enough attention that people should be ensuring that they don't? Or that's, that's maybe up and coming that people aren't aware of that they should be insuring?

Mark (02:07):

I, I think, I mean, it could be anything. You can pretty much insure anything. You can do your shoe collection, your taxidermy, your sculptures, your art, your collectibles. I, I think maybe a lot of times people don't think to ensure the smaller items, especially if you're talking jewelry. They think about the big ticket items, but they don't think about the watch that the spouse bought them last week, or the pearl necklace or the ring.

So I think it's a good idea to always take inventory, at least on an annual basis, kind of take a look at what you have and make sure everything is accounted for.

Julie (02:44):

Yeah.

Tyler (02:45):

Alright, mark, last one. What's a common assumption collectors make about their insurance program that isn't always accurate?

Mark (02:55):

That everything is covered the way they like it to be covered, maybe.

Tyler (02:59):

Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, so they, they think it's covered or that, you know, what they insured it for or five years ago was still an accurate valuation for today. Right.

Mark (03:09):

That's a good one. Or sometimes people think I don't need to separately schedule it or have it covered under blanket. They assume it's covered under contents, under the homeowners, and some of those things are changing, so that could be a slippery road.

Julie (03:23):

But when it comes to insurance, are all insurance policies for collections equal?

Mark (03:31):

No, that's the easy question. Look, it depends on how big the collection is, what you're trying to accomplish. How is the collection spread out amongst various homes? There's the average collector that may have a $10 million fine art.

Policy and some jewelry and silverware, and that's pretty straightforward. But once you get into the hundreds of millions of dollars and you have different homes across the country or the world, it, it changes slightly. Then you can look at what's the spread of risk? Do you buy up to the actual value of the collection, or do you look at what's your largest location because you're not gonna have a loss at all the homes at the same time and structure something along that line.

Then you can look at, do you wanna have it covered under blanket, which gives you a little more flexibility. A lot of those things can be negotiated. So I think that's really where you want to partner with somebody that. Does this regularly. They don't shy away from looking at the contract and pushing underwriters.

Do you go to a London syndicate directly, or do you build a tower domestically or in conjunction with, um, Lloyds of London or other specialty carriers? It's a changing landscape. I think in the few years ago, towers were pretty common in recent years. A lot of the markets, domestic and London have a lot of appetite.

They can do up to a billion dollars fairly easily. So different ways to looking at it. And there's different reasons why you would do one or the other.

Tyler (05:07):

You know, mark, you said that you've seen, you know, at one point the world's largest collection beyond the, the collecting, the, the collecting of the individual item itself.

How do you look at structuring a program when you're encompassing such a large, um, variety, uh, and high valuation of items?

Mark (05:27):

It's always nice to involve the the insurer who's on the rest of the assets. If somebody has a billion dollar collection, they will have a lot of homes, other toys, so it makes sense to explore if they can be a viable option for the collection.

Just 'cause it maximizes your leverage. But that doesn't mean they're always the right answer

Julie (05:50):

and one to give you kudos. I mean, you have dealt with London and the, the syndicates and the, the London carriers for a really long time. So you have really longstanding relationships with those people.

Um, and so I think that that. To your point earlier on, it's really important to be able to, um, have those relationships and that trust with people over there in order to be able to structure this stuff. Because not for one, not all agents domestically within the domestic US Right.

Um, have those resources or those connections, but they don't even know where to even go for that stuff. Right. Yeah. Well, we're done with the rapid fire, so we're good. So we're good.

Mark (06:29):

Alright.

Julie (06:29):

Um, are there, are there markets out there that just specialize in. Ensuring collections or you know, like our regular high net worth carriers, they do ensure collections as well. But are there markets out there that this is all that they do all day every day, and is there a benefit of going to one or the other?

Mark (06:47):

Yeah, I mean, there's specialty markets in, in any segment, I guess, and including fine art jewelry. And is there value in going to them? Absolutely. It's again, wherever you need to get capacity and, and I don't want to belittle those markets, but again, if I can leverage an existing relationship across the other alliance.

That's important and that shouldn't be discounted. So a lot of times we may use them as a primary carrier or layer. I would, for no other reason. I don't know if I would necessarily just go to a specialty provider unless the, the risk is so unique and I can't find the capacity. But again, we'd always like to leverage the overall relationship.

Julie (07:32):

Yeah, makes sense.

Tyler (07:33):

Let's pivot here a little bit. Um, 'cause you know, I know, I know we've talked about, you know, the market itself about, you know, potentially stacking, towering, you know, different levels when it comes to these large collections. I mean, the only reason why clients have, you know, insurance on their fine art is an event of a claim.

So, through your experience and maybe some, some personal experience with acclaim, can you just walk through what a claim.

Um, like painting or what have looks like for our clients?

Mark (08:06):

I mean, look, generally speaking, I don't think that the claims are gonna be much different than other ones, but it always depends on the circumstances.

For example, underwriters typically don't love. When a collection is transported, that's when a lot of damage occurs. That can often cause a claim. And why do I bring that up? Because that's where I think it can go sideways.

That's why we always recommend do you have a condition report? Uh, let's say you buy something on auction, get a condition report when it's still at the wall, at the gallery, or wherever you got it before it is packed, and then you do it again on the back end when it comes out at your house.

You know exactly where the damage occurred. So I think that's where it can go sideways or around valuation. If you have partial damage and it's the, the item is restored, and

then you get an argument, how much of it is di uh, diminuation in value? And, and, and so on and so forth.

Julie (09:07):

And, and to your point, restoration, that's a big, that's a big, huge risk that people take on, right?

Because even if they can restore it, it's not never guaranteed if it's gonna still be as valuable as it was once was. You know what I mean?

Mark (09:20):

Well, but that's why you want to be with the reputable market. So you, you get to collect again, the diminuation in value, so you will be made.

Julie (09:28):

Exactly, because claims can be, I mean, you talked about transport.

I mean, have you seen in the marketplace, like with fraudulent stuff, like how that, I mean, 'cause that stuff is, is real on every line of business when it comes to insurance, right? So I can imagine that when we're talking about pieces of art that, you know, people, you've seen all the movies, you know, all, all the, the fraudulent, um, movies that are, movies that are all based on, you know, impostors.

I mean, have you seen that kind of stuff? I mean, how do the insurance companies respond to that?

Mark (10:02):

I mean, essentially what you're talking about is, is, is is authenticity and provenance. You wanna make sure that what you buy is the real thing and, and not a fake or forgery.

And, but even the new trend, the younger generation, they're pivoting more towards sports memorabilia and.

It all comes down to authenticity. Because you can get a jersey that Michael Jordan wore, and that will have value. But if he wore it for—I don't know, his last championship game or whatever an important game was— that might have more value.

So, to rely that somebody authenticated that this is what in fact happened or.

That these are the sneakers that Raja Federer won his last Grand Slam, and that's gonna be a different valuation than the one he won an average tournament.

And again, you gotta know what you're buying, buy from reputable sources, do your homework.

Tyler (11:00):

We're starting to see a lot of these collections starting to pass through the next generation, right? So what should collectors think differently about if an item sold, gifted, or passed on to their heirs or, or, or to say like a museum, for instance.

Mark (11:20):

Look, I think it, obviously I'm not a, an attorney or a tax advisor, but that's why it's important to surround yourself with, with a team of professionals.

You gotta have your wealth manager, you gotta have your, a tax person, your attorney, your risk manager, IE insurance broker, and talk through those things.

A like, what are you trying to accomplish? If you have a really large collection, you don't do proper planning and that's a significant part of your assets.

You wanna do planning for that. 'cause guess what? When you're out of the picture and it goes onto the beneficiaries, and let's say they don't want the art 'cause they don't care about it, you don't want to have a billion dollar art collection that now all of a sudden you're in duress and have to sell to, to liquidate the estate, to pay Uncle Sam estate taxation.

That's a position you don't want to be in if you are wanting to gift it. What does that mean to, to your state and what does it mean to your heirs?

Um, how are you gonna make them whole? And maybe that doesn't matter to you. So I think there's gonna be a, a big shift of what we used to see and, and what the younger generation now really is interested in, in, in collecting.

Tyler (12:36):

One thing that maybe I think we can touch on that we haven't discussed just yet is how you create a resilient collection.

Mark (12:43):

I mean, it could be anything. It could be as simple as what hooks are you using to install your paintings?

You don't wanna just hammer and nail into the wall and hope that the, uh, $50 million Picasso isn't gonna come crashing down.

If you're hosting a lot of events and people move around, you don't want somebody to accidentally knock over your Rodan sculpture.

Or putting a painting above the fireplace. There's proper hooks, earthquake hooks, that you could utilize that, that make sure that the painting doesn't fall off the wall if it starts shaking and rattling.

Do you have an evacuation plan? Maybe you have crates for your largest items, the most valuable items, and you have a plan what to do with that.

Maybe you have a. Fireproof room in the house or an elevated interior room in Florida that you can take something to.

Or if you have the time that you do have a contract with a fine art packer and shepherd, that can create them for you 'cause you have a crate on your property and take it off site.

I know of one client that moved close to half a billion dollars worth of art before the fires came through and Pacific Palisades.

So there are things you can do, and those are things that you have to look at. More importantly, you can also do things to make sure that your homes are safe to begin with.

Tyler (14:24):

Mark that, that's helpful. And I think you're right.

Um, a lot of times our clients, the time to prepare is not during an event. It's well beforehand, right?

To have a, a scripted, you know, process and protocol and what to do in the event.

Uh, and even for wildfires during wildfire season, you can start to do, you know.

To, you know, create a process by which that art is moved off site. But you have to have that planning well ahead of time. Mm-hmm. And something that I know we, we are actively managing with our clients.

Mark (14:45):

Yeah. And also showing the staff, if you have staff, empower them that they know what to do.

It doesn't have to be a wildfire or hurricane, but if somebody knocked over a wine and it's spilled onto a piece of art, they know what to do.

To, to, to get Kleenex out and wipe it down may not be the smartest thing to deal with that.

Julie (15:06):

Well, and you know, mark, you and I had talked to somebody a few weeks ago that said, you know, make sure that the crates that you do have don't have a whole bunch of mold in them. Right.

That whatever you're using is actually the adequate form of transportation or safety.

Mark (15:24):

Yeah.

Julie (15:24):

But Mark, thank you so much for joining us.

This is, listen. I think that you have so much experience in this space that you, we always learn something new when we're talking, so I appreciate it. But I'm gonna wrap this up.

I think that we've kind of covered a lot today and to our viewers, as always, stay safe and stay protected. Thank you.

Mark (15:44):

Thanks for having me. Thanks.

Julie (15:45):

Thanks,

Mark (15:45):

Julie.

00:00 — Authenticity and buying smart
The episode opens with a key reminder: collectors need to know exactly what they’re buying. Authenticity, provenance, and purchasing from reputable sources are critical to avoiding costly mistakes, especially as fraud and forgery risks persist across art and memorabilia markets.

01:15 — The scale and complexity of major collections
The conversation highlights just how large private collections can reach billions in value and how insurance strategies vary depending on whether assets are fully insured to value or distributed across multiple locations globally.

03:30 — Overlooked risks in collections
High-value items are often the main focus, but it’s also important to keep track of everyday valuables like jewelry and recent additions. Regular inventory reviews and updated valuations are essential to ensure everything is properly accounted for and insured.

05:30 — Structuring insurance programs for collections
Not all policies are equal. Coverage decisions depend on collection size, geographic spread, and risk tolerance. Strategies may include blanket vs. scheduled coverage, leveraging existing insurer relationships, or building layered programs across domestic and international markets.

08:00 — Claims challenges: transport, damage, and valuation
Transit is one of the highest-risk moments for fine art. Condition reports before and after transport are crucial. Partial damage claims can become complex due to restoration and disputes over diminished value.

10:00 — Planning for generational transfer and liquidity
As collections pass to the next generation, lack of planning can force unwanted sales to cover estate taxes. Coordinating with legal, tax, and insurance advisors helps preserve value and align collections with long-term goals.

12:30 — Building a resilient collection
Risk management goes beyond insurance. Proper installation, storage, emergency planning, trained staff, and pre-arranged evacuation strategies can significantly reduce losses from events like fires, floods, or accidents.